Max Semenchuk: Hey, Brendan.
Brandon Kelly: What's up, Max? How are you?
Max Semenchuk: A bit tired, but otherwise cool. And you?
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, same.
Brandon Kelly: Have you had lobster before, Max?
Max Semenchuk: Lobster.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, I think I once had a lobster, and maybe I have an allergy to the lobster.
Max Semenchuk: But, yeah, it was tasty, I guess. It was like a big shrimp.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, exactly.
Max Semenchuk: Do you like lobsters?
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, but that's what the theme is for this, this agent…
Max Semenchuk: I saw.
Max Semenchuk: I see, yeah, yeah, malt, malt bought, and, yeah, all that craze.
Max Semenchuk: I'm curious to hear how you play with it.
Brandon Kelly: Well, I haven't got it up and running, but I… I built an agent.
Brandon Kelly: Using a pretty cool sequence.
Brandon Kelly: on, chat, deep thinking, chat GPT.
Brandon Kelly: Where…
Max Semenchuk: Okay.
Brandon Kelly: it suggests certain things, and as I read it.
Brandon Kelly: I can just respond with a number. So I got… with this method, I got up to 30…
Brandon Kelly: units.
Brandon Kelly: And…
Brandon Kelly: It stopped there to where it said, like, hey, this is the part where you need to start testing the,
Brandon Kelly: The structure, and then you can start adding these other features, which were scoped in.
Brandon Kelly: So, this weekend, ChatGPT really impressed me with that. It was also frustrating with some other stuff today, but… or, the other day, but…
Brandon Kelly: I found that… Was the most impressive part.
Brandon Kelly: Is how well it vibe-coded.
Brandon Kelly: the construct, because I was able to just feed GitHub's You know what I mean?
Max Semenchuk: With certain things and ideas.
Brandon Kelly: And then it composed, like, a 1 to 30 implementation, giving
Brandon Kelly: A deep thinking prompt on each unit, all the way up to 30.
Brandon Kelly: It was impressive.
Brandon Kelly: We'll see if we can get it into production, though.
Brandon Kelly: I sent it over to… James, and a private GitHub, if you're also interested, let me know.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, why not?
Max Semenchuk: I can text you my account. Hi, Gregory.
Gregory Landua: Hi.
Brandon Kelly: Morning.
Gregory Landua: Morning!
Brandon Kelly: I was telling Max, GPT impressed me this weekend, I was able to get a prompt, a vibe coding session, to build an ideal agent, how I understand it, from, like.
Brandon Kelly: Just typing in numbers.
Brandon Kelly: And it would just build and build.
Brandon Kelly: on each… each time I typed in 29, I don't have to, like, type in a whole sentence, or this and that, it's like…
Brandon Kelly: Just 1 through 30, that still blows my mind.
Gregory Landua: Crazy.
Max Semenchuk: Hey, Christian. Hey, Atsem.
Max Semenchuk: I'm not sure I… I've seen you before. Are you new to this call?
Max Semenchuk: Feel free to unmute, unmute, or just write in the chat. I'm talking to EdSim, just in case.
Max Semenchuk: But I guess we can start forming…
Max Semenchuk: Hey, Adam. Yeah, happy to have you.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, let's, collect the agenda.
Max Semenchuk: I, of course, want to showcase this modeling work done lately.
Max Semenchuk: I also spoke with Brandon in DMs, and maybe he would also like to bring something about the AI agents, right, Brendan?
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, sure, if there's time.
Max Semenchuk: Anything else? Yeah, I want to hear that.
Christian: Well, Max, I definitely want to… maybe it's on the call or not on the call, but,
Christian: way of just trying to summarize. I just grabbed a bunch of the notes from previous calls, and I put that in the chat. It's… it's quite a ways back now, but,
Christian: I don't know if you've had a chance to look over that, but I'm hoping to help out with us to vibecode out what needs to be built to bring our tokenomics forward, but I just want to make sure that I actually have the right concepts clear.
Christian: So maybe we can use some time today just to,
Christian: to clarify… I don't know what's need… I actually don't know what's needed. What, you know, what are the point-by-point
Christian: pieces of tokenomics upgrade that we as a group are saying we want to, you know, move forward with. And obviously, your modeling has a big part to play in that.
Max Semenchuk: Okay, cool.
Christian: Yeah.
Max Semenchuk: Anything else?
Max Semenchuk: Guys?
Christian: I also, vibe-coded my first two websites over the last couple days.
Christian: Just personal stuff. I've… I created a website for the Super Bowl party that my friends are gonna go to, and it's just a complete joke website.
Christian: But it's… it's really fun to have done it, you know? It just took me… I mean, it was… it was live within about an hour, and then I took a couple more hours just tweaking things and changing things, but man, it's super empowering and really cool to have gone through the process, so…
Gregory Landua: And you did that with Cloud Code as your main tool?
Christian: I did that with… yeah, yeah, I started with ChatGPT as I was driving home from dropping my daughter off at school. I just used voice mode, and
Christian: chatted about what the website could be, and some ideas, and things we could do, and then I had it print out a spec sheet that I would copy and paste into Cloud Code.
Christian: And, and it did that, and then I… and then Cloud Code then executed it.
Christian: And, yeah. And then Cloud Code and I also went back and forth about some different ideas. Cloud Code added some cool features.
Christian: That, I hadn't thought of either, so… Yeah, it's so… these tools are so fucking cool, so empowering.
Brandon Kelly: Totally.
Christian: And I really, really… sorry, my last thing I'll just say on this is, on Hard Fork, those guys were saying, one thing that's super exciting about this moment is it kind of harkens back to the beginning of the internet, when people just made web pages for whatever, and it just goes, because I can, I'll have a webpage for…
Christian: You know, whatever, and now we can kind of do that again. It's just… in the interim, commercialization basically took over everything, and then nobody…
Christian: Had webpages for stuff anymore, or you just didn't see them, but now…
Christian: In a couple hours, you can make a web page for anything.
Christian: So, it's, it's fun.
Gregory Landua: Pretty fun!
Brandon Kelly: So true.
Christian: it's fun, it's empowering, and, you know, like, for regen, I'm curious about the stuff we could do that would just be…
Christian: You know?
Christian: fun and productive, and help us sell some more Eco Credits, and, you know, whatever, making little gains, or whatever it might be, that could be…
Christian: And I think that maybe that overlaps a little bit with what Brandon's been playing with this week. So, excited to hear about that.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, I can run through it real quick, unless you want to start modeling facts.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, maybe I'll start with modeling, and then we could speak a bit about the upgrades, and then discuss the agents, and maybe spend roughly same amount of time to each question. Would that be fine?
Brandon Kelly: Yep.
Mark DeRugeriis: Yeah, Max, can you also add to the agenda?
Mark DeRugeriis: Good morning, everyone.
Brandon Kelly: Morning.
Mark DeRugeriis: The coin store listing?
Max Semenchuk: Is it a big question, or rather an update?
Mark DeRugeriis: It would be an update, and then also…
Mark DeRugeriis: Question in terms of, well, maybe…
Mark DeRugeriis: Maybe not exactly related to that, But… I know…
Mark DeRugeriis: Brendan suggested some ways that the SPV could contribute like to just… At a high level, just…
Mark DeRugeriis: Run over a couple things that… That he mentioned to me.
Mark DeRugeriis: That I think is relevant.
Mark DeRugeriis: Just so I can get some more context on it.
Mark DeRugeriis: So I guess two things.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, I guess if it's operational, maybe we could start with that, and solve it, and then move to more…
Max Semenchuk: Discussional space.
Mark DeRugeriis: Sure.
Mark DeRugeriis: So, update on Coinstar, looks like we're gonna be… we have a… we're gonna get a listening date today.
Mark DeRugeriis: and time.
Mark DeRugeriis: I don't know, Christian, did you have…
Mark DeRugeriis: Time to just look at those last couple questions.
Mark DeRugeriis: on the coin store, questionnaire.
Christian: I, I have not.
Mark DeRugeriis: If you could just do that, it's just a couple of things that… We couldn't answer.
Mark DeRugeriis: we're… And, and so once that questionnaire is in, which we'll hope to get in today.
Mark DeRugeriis: We'll get, they did a, Image that they're gonna…
Mark DeRugeriis: Put, like, region coming soon type of,
Mark DeRugeriis: Banner that they're gonna release on their website, and yada yada yada.
Mark DeRugeriis: And we're gonna have to… up, some liquidity pairings.
Mark DeRugeriis: which the SPV will handle.
Mark DeRugeriis: I'll interface with Will about how best to do that.
Mark DeRugeriis: And the thing is, is that once this goes live.
Mark DeRugeriis: should we be trying to do anything else? And that kind of funnels into my second question, or my second thing.
Mark DeRugeriis: Is that, where we're participating in these incentive pools, or… these other things Brendan mentioned to me.
Mark DeRugeriis: what age?
Mark DeRugeriis: And what would be best strategically to do…
Mark DeRugeriis: when the listing CoinSort goes live.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, my defensive suggestion was simply to put liquidity 20% below market price.
Brandon Kelly: in USDC, on Uniswap.
Brandon Kelly: At a 1% fee, Where the range
Brandon Kelly: Let's say the price is .002, you put it at .002, all the way down.
Brandon Kelly: To 90% or 80% Below that, so that would make it… Around .000.
Brandon Kelly: 3.
Brandon Kelly: So, we would place a liquidity band underneath the pri…
Brandon Kelly: To support the price as it declines, because it's…
Brandon Kelly: I don't know, I think it might decline, so it's a defensive position to… Bye.
Brandon Kelly: At a lower price, and support arbitrage the whole way down.
Brandon Kelly: And the… If it doesn't go down.
Brandon Kelly: then that money just stays solid there. And if it shoots up, you can just pull it and move on to the next strategy.
Brandon Kelly: But this is a defensive position if the market isn't going to keep
Brandon Kelly: If the market isn't gonna switch from reward-based selling, like Max is describing, to… Buying only.
Brandon Kelly: That's what…
Mark DeRugeriis: That makes sense to folks, and…
Mark DeRugeriis: Anyone's comments about that, or any other strategies?
Brandon Kelly: Or the SPV.
Mark DeRugeriis: Gregory?
Gregory Landua: I mean…
Gregory Landua: Sounds fine. I think probably detailed, specific liquidity positions that the SPV's running, you guys should have in just, like, bilateral conversation.
Gregory Landua: Okay. I'm not on the… I'm not on this forum.
Mark DeRugeriis: But I guess, at a high level.
Mark DeRugeriis: That seems like a good idea.
Mark DeRugeriis: Upon a centralized listing.
Gregory Landua: Yeah.
Gregory Landua: Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think we're all bullish, so… I mean…
Gregory Landua: The pros and cons are, on some level, just to be perfectly honest.
Gregory Landua: I'm bullish, and that means that I would like more cheaper region. So, that means that you guys establishing buffers and price floors
Gregory Landua: Is counter to my desires, which is to buy region for as cheap as possible.
Gregory Landua: But if your goal is to sort of, like, buffer the price for a variety of reasons, it sounds logical.
Mark DeRugeriis: Yeah, because it's… I get that grave, but I guess, to me, it's about the optics, right?
Gregory Landua: Yeah, but at this stage, I feel like the optics are so bad, it matters not. And so, it's like, I just don't think that's… like, if you guys have other reasons…
Gregory Landua: Right? If the SPV has a specific thesis that requires that, I think that that makes sense.
Gregory Landua: At this stage, though, I think those of us who are working really hard on a comeback, whatever that might be.
Gregory Landua: I actually, like, the optics are terrible, it's just gonna be our ingenuity, elbow grease, and…
Gregory Landua: you know, that pulls it off at this moment. If it goes down another 100%, like, it doesn't matter. I don't think it's, like, it's already…
Mark DeRugeriis: No, I'm just concerned.
Gregory Landua: All it does is give us cheaper regen to accumulate, and…
Gregory Landua: have an easier time managing upgrades than further managing liquidity in the future. So at this point, it's like this weird inversion, where actually I think cheaper region is good.
Gregory Landua: In a way.
Gregory Landua: We might as well just embrace it and lean into the pain, kind of, because it allows us to be more flexible with token distribution, it allows us to be…
Gregory Landua: you know, more aggressive with upgrades, it allows us to have a tighter coordination system while also working on the distribution and sort of, like, re-decentralization as part of the comeback. So, I would say
Gregory Landua: personally, I think that we should be focusing energy on utility upgrades, utility upgrades,
Gregory Landua: And sort of, like, establishing best-in-class parameter management.
Gregory Landua: for our upgrades.
Gregory Landua: And we should just focus all of our attention. SPV,
Gregory Landua: R&D, this broader working group, and…
Gregory Landua: for a time being, kind of, like, have… my instinct is be less focused on liquidity management and market making in the short term. And I know I'm a bit of a broken record, I keep… I keep saying that. And, you know, this is…
Gregory Landua: a decentralized network, and so I think peop- you know, people are gonna do what they're gonna do, vis-a-vis that stuff.
Gregory Landua: I only really think that not because liquidity management market-making activities aren't important, they are, but if we have limited time resources and cash resources, they're not the current limiting factor.
Gregory Landua: The current limiting factor is these other things.
Gregory Landua: Which is re-establishing confidence in the coin through, you know, just…
Gregory Landua: a radical transformation of token economics, and a radical upgrade in utility. And those two things, I guess the way I think about it is, until we get those two things.
Gregory Landua: They should be our primary focus.
Mark DeRugeriis: The only reason, well… My… one of my main concerns is getting delisted.
Mark DeRugeriis: So that's why I was…
Gregory Landua: Yeah, totally. Makes sense. But in my paradigm.
Gregory Landua: getting listed or delisted and all of those different things are sort of a distraction from just, like, the transformation and utility and processes, and so the more energy we put into fighting that fight right now, while we're in this big… especially because we're in the middle of a giant macro correction around crypto.
Gregory Landua: There's, like, this whole… there's a whole thing, a bunch of stuff we can't control, but what we can control is…
Gregory Landua: you know, enacting the vision that we've been slowly building out, and getting across
Gregory Landua: this sort of, like, the Rubicon, so to speak, making the quantum leap.
Gregory Landua: In token economics, in…
Gregory Landua: You know, agent-enabled governance processes and code process and all that stuff, and that all feels like we have a lot of agency and a lot of capability.
Gregory Landua: to just focus on right now, whereas the market stuff feels like we're, like, trying to dig a hole in the sand as the tide's coming in, basically. That's just how it feels to me.
Mark DeRugeriis: I don't like how it feels to me.
Gregory Landua: Yeah, so I would just say, like, don't worry about it, the tide's coming in, come up the beach a ways, and let's build sandcastles.
Gregory Landua: You know, like… Yeah.
Mark DeRugeriis: Okay.
Brandon Kelly: Excellent.
Mark DeRugeriis: That's it, I'm good, that is.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah.
Gregory Landua: And I realize, I just realized you also have optics with the SPV investors and other things, there's other things, but if you can work with them to invite them
Gregory Landua: to embrace the silver lining of low-priced region, and, like, I think what's important is we have a durable, committed crew of contributors.
Gregory Landua: of users, of land stewards, of institution… like, we have all of the ingredients to make a powerful turnaround, and in that situation, low-price region is actually beneficial. It isn't bad.
Gregory Landua: So…
Gregory Landua: if we can do the jiu-jitsu move on that, I think it's a perception thing, but that would be my advice to you to focus on.
Gregory Landua: is actually both personally embracing and getting your stakeholders to just be like, yeah, I mean, the cheaper the region, the bigger the position, and the easier the coordination at this stage.
Gregory Landua: Not financial advice.
Max Semenchuk: Are we ready to move to the next question?
Brandon Kelly: Go ahead, Max.
Max Semenchuk: Okay.
Max Semenchuk: So, I'll share my screen and show you some stuff.
Max Semenchuk: So, after our conversation on fixed-cap dynamic supply, I was, looking into the modeling, you know, what we could model, and, last time, it was about different, like.
Max Semenchuk: financial parameters. This time, I try to focus more about what would help the network achieve its goals, and by this, I mean the sales of ECHO credits and moving more capital in the hands of the ECHO projects owners.
Max Semenchuk: So, here I distinguish, this is our, like.
Max Semenchuk: ideological perception of the token, so it could be either as a reward, so we give it for, like, validators, or for service providers, or whatever, so this is one way to look at it, and the other way is to look at it as a more, like, a governance coordination vehicle.
Max Semenchuk: So here is, like, the comparison of the diagram, and basically, for the reward model, we have this inflation, which goes to the market, and basically this price discovery, you know, on the sale and buy, and sell pressure, like.
Max Semenchuk: last year's was overwhelming, you know? So,
Max Semenchuk: it started, like, it couldn't work, but so far, we haven't, you know, found a way for this… for the buy to be higher than sell. Because sell pressure is always there for covering expenses, you know, and for some decisions, and
Max Semenchuk: And so on. So it's always there, but buy is not always there.
Max Semenchuk: And the institutional model here, it speaks about the… there is, like, aggregated sales, and then some, like, portion of those sales, like, fee, around, like, 5 or 10% will go to the cooperative, like, it, like, currently is, like, a community pool, or, like, a coordination bank, or whatever.
Max Semenchuk: So, the token holders can govern, like, where these fees… how these fees are distributed. So, they can be distributed. I guess the most productive is in stimulation of sales, marketing, you know, like, representation at conferences and so on, everything that could boost
Max Semenchuk: the sales. And of course, there is also infrastructure, so sometimes creation of the echo credits or implementation of new technologies.
Max Semenchuk: can improve their trust to the ECHO credits and so on, so it has no direct impact, but still, you know, important. So those two categories…
Max Semenchuk: Could be funded from this bank.
Max Semenchuk: here is some complication with the grant. It's, mostly, is connected to that currently we have, like, as we spoke with Mark, like, around 50K of eco credit sales per quarter, so, like, around 15K per month, so the 5% or 10% fee would
Max Semenchuk: really bring really small amount of potential capital to, you know, fund even the smallest program. So, grant here is like a transitional capital until the model is self-sufficient.
Max Semenchuk: So here, like, again, a bit of a complication of different scenarios we can measure, but a basic setup is, like, how many years you want to simulate, how much
Max Semenchuk: we call, like, this, base sales. So, currently, this sales
Max Semenchuk: are driven by R&D, I guess, the most, and I don't know what it costs to R&D, but it seems like there is a constant effort to, you know, to sell, so it's like, what is being sold now? But it could be different, of course. Then there is, like, how much of transitional funding can be provided.
Max Semenchuk: By the, donor-advised funds, or something. And then, what is the…
Max Semenchuk: target, budget we will call for self-sufficiency. It could be different, you know, all of that is assumption, all of this is, like, a first
Max Semenchuk: a version of the model where I will invite you for feedback, and then we can build the second, the third, or whatever.
Max Semenchuk: So now, like, we define how much… how big is the fee, how much would be sent to sales, and how much to infra, so this would be the governance decision. It's not preset, it's like…
Max Semenchuk: Every quarter or so, the token holders can decide differently, but it simulates this distribution, and there is one of the biggest assumptions in this model is that if we invest $1 in sales, it will produce $4 in,
Max Semenchuk: Echo Credit Sales.
Max Semenchuk: So this is a big leap, of course, you know, it's just simplification for this model, and we can speak more about that, but basically, you know, like, we…
Max Semenchuk: pay somebody's salary, like, 1K per month, so we would expect that he would sell 4K of eco-credits per month.
Max Semenchuk: Just in the simple matters.
Max Semenchuk: what I understood as well is, like, if we would not have any retention, so every time we would need to pay the salesperson to sell, and every time it would be a new buyer, that would
Max Semenchuk: Like, not work very well, so we would need to also build for retention, so that some customers would be returning at least 10% of the volume or so.
Max Semenchuk: And I also, for this transitional funding, I apply some idle yield, which is not changing the picture so much, but also, like, this bank can be, you know.
Max Semenchuk: and have, this, revenue stream from using, like, this, USDCs or whatever, which would be sent. So from echo Credit Sales, it would be sent, like, the stables to the, to the fund.
Max Semenchuk: So now, like, here are, like, a few graphics. So, one is, like, the eco credit sales. So, again, the red one is the baseline, so we keep selling 50K per quarter, you know, nothing changes.
Max Semenchuk: I, again, it's debatable if it would work for a long time, whatever, but here is this idea of the flywheel, you know, so every time we sell a bit, a bit more money go to the fund, a bit more money is invested in sales, more sales coming. Of course, there is
Max Semenchuk: The market capacity, every other questions, but, you know, it's like the…
Max Semenchuk: loop that makes the dynamics stronger.
Max Semenchuk: And over time, you know, it's like, we can play with parameters, but at first, the monthly fee could not cover the budget we want, so we would use some amount of the donor-advised funds or whatever, but after some moment, it should become efficient, like, self-sufficient.
Max Semenchuk: So… don't trust these numbers very much. It's more like, you know, the dynamics. We could see, like, what would influence if we would spend more, like, if we will have
Max Semenchuk: higher ROI or lower ROI, it will just show, you know, different situations. But, I'm comparing to the baseline of the sales we have now.
Max Semenchuk: Just the cumulative sales, what goes to the projects, you know, the amount of money that will go to them, and how much time would be needed for getting to the self-sufficiency, just, you know.
Max Semenchuk: preliminary.
Max Semenchuk: So, at this moment, I will stop and allow you to ask questions, and then maybe feedback.
Gregory Landua: Biggest question… I mean, there's a number of different things, but the biggest question I have is, it feels like in this, scenario.
Gregory Landua: This is sort of saying that the primary utility of region is simply to coordinate, essentially to govern the co-bank.
Max Semenchuk: Yep.
Gregory Landua: So that's its primary. It is… you know, yeah.
Brandon Kelly: That's the primary…
Gregory Landua: purpose of it. Yeah. I would… I would… is that correct in this… Sort of system.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, like, I guess the status quo is that we expect many features from the token, you know, it should be good for paying, like, gas, it should be a store of value, it should be, like, many things, governance, and so on. So, it's not saying that there would be no other,
Max Semenchuk: uses, but what should be the primary use? What is the use we would focus on?
Gregory Landua: The same as currently, right? So what you're saying is that actually doesn't change the, sort of.
Gregory Landua: in a way, I guess this is what I'm trying to get at, is, in a way, it's the same as the current status quo, which is that the region token can be used for government, governance, it could be used for collateral, it could be used for buying and selling things. That sort of, like.
Gregory Landua: multi-faceted sort of currency-like attribute doesn't change. But what does change is we essentially shift from minting for security to,
Gregory Landua: you know, almost, it looks to me, like just governing fee splitting.
Gregory Landua: plus maybe minor subsidies if and when we want, because I think what you're saying is we might still use the token to reward, is that true?
Gregory Landua: Or not. We're only using it to govern fee splits and direct, sort of, USD investments.
Max Semenchuk: That's what I'm not clear about.
Gregory Landua: about, is like, is, like, what's the role of minting new ones versus the role of governing fee splits, investments, and grants from a USDC bank account?
Gregory Landua: Or not bank, but, you know, like, Cope on-chain… Account.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah.
Max Semenchuk: So, every period currently, we, mint a lot of region, as rewards for, for the, stakers, right? And validators. And, so it's, mostly seen as a reward for them, and,
Max Semenchuk: I guess, this leads people to think, oh, it's a reward, but it's… this reward is diminishing in value. So, logically, you know, most rewarding for me would be just sell it while it costs something, you know? While in the, like, other model, it's,
Max Semenchuk: like, doesn't have a promise of, you know, it's not a reward, it's more like an obligation. So, for example, we could even… it's one of the ways, you know, like, we will speak next about Christian's question, about the specific changes, like, of dynamics, but we can stop minting all the tokens, and
Max Semenchuk: whoever has the token, that's who has the token, and then this is the maximum amount, and then in this amount, it just would be reorganized by holders, you know, by those who would be
Max Semenchuk: best, as, coordinators,
Max Semenchuk: best in governance, you know, so that would be a new type of game that we'll move to. That's the whole idea, like, whole change of mode.
Gregory Landua: Cool. Yeah, I mean, I ask because in my worldview, and I published a little bit about this, but I could certainly publish more, I sort of feel like direct
Gregory Landua: You know, token-to-governance weight.
Gregory Landua: Has its limitations as a… as a governance approach.
Gregory Landua: I do feel like…
Gregory Landua: it's necessary. It's sort of like it represents a necessary skin-in-the-game thing, but also instrumenting some sort of weight system that
Gregory Landua: Leverages kind of like a graph of…
Gregory Landua: Capabilities or skills or peer confidence in other things to establish kind of, like, more dynamic governance or liquid governance, so it isn't just, sort of, like, who ends up owning the tokens.
Gregory Landua: is probably wise. It's a little bit more complex, maybe it's a Phase 2 thing, so I'm… anyway, I'm just trying to test
Gregory Landua: that, like, idea that I have around what's optimal, and, like, what's been proven to not really work in a way of, like, just pure token governance voting.
Gregory Landua: kind of, like, vibes, if that makes sense, or even technical praxis.
Gregory Landua: And how that might fit in this, either later or at the beginning.
Gregory Landua: And of course, that makes…
Gregory Landua: That, in a way, that dilutes the story, it complexifies the story, it dilutes the…
Gregory Landua: You know, the core, utility of the…
Gregory Landua: Token as well, but that's just to narrate
Gregory Landua: Where my, questions are coming from.
Gregory Landua: More than anything.
Max Semenchuk: Thanks.
Gregory Landua: But just, like, I'll… I'll end with the reflection that I… I think this re… this represents at its core, and there's, like, downstream questions, like some of the ones I'm bringing up.
Gregory Landua: And there's some things that I actually think are important to nail in the documents.
Gregory Landua: about this.
Gregory Landua: But… The core logic here of…
Gregory Landua: Dynamic governance of fee splitting, dynamic governance
Gregory Landua: of once… of, of sort of, like, platform or, or network… I think network's a better word, network, sort of, like, treasury management.
Gregory Landua: As well as to… as well as token mint burn logic.
Gregory Landua: and, like, direct linking of all of that to the flywheel logic, and governing that, all of that, I'm just, like, I have full buy-in around. Like, I think those are basic logical leaps.
Gregory Landua: That are… that represent… No regrets forward movement, right? Whether… whether or not we define…
Gregory Landua: region as sort of like a multivalent value flow coordination system, or it ends up being evolving more to a store of value, and we distribute governance in a different way. Whatever it is, right, that we end up doing, the basic logic here feels, like, really important to get done, basically.
Gregory Landua: So, hopefully that's a helpful perspective. And, like, not get caught up in some of the harder questions necessarily, or defer those questions, or design how we want to answer those questions later based on testing and…
Gregory Landua: Perception and other things.
Max Semenchuk: Thanks.
Christian: What this model doesn't do is take that next step right there, right? Which is… which is define, you know, the,
Christian: The total amount, the maximum amount of regen, if we decide to switch to the model of,
Christian: static, rather than, constant inflating regen.
Christian: And it doesn't define, the buyback, buyback and burn mechanism that would lead…
Christian: Tom could result in some potential regen price over time.
Christian: Right? What you're doing here is showing how this model would increase the amount of EcoCredit sales over time.
Christian: Do I have that right?
Christian: Yeah. Yeah.
Max Semenchuk: Correct.
Christian: So then the… so I'm reading between the lines here. The part of the… I mean, the goal here is…
Christian: ecological regeneration, and that's through the sales of eco-credits. But if we're looking at the regen token, one of the things I'm reading between the line here is that there is a buyback and burn mechanism associated with every EcoCredit sale in retirement.
Christian: And there might be other little burn mechanisms, too. And by the EcoCredit sales going up and to the right, it also means that the amount of buybacks and burns are also going up and to the right, which would lead a
Christian: Token price model to show that the price of the regen token would go up and to the right as well.
Christian: Does that all sound correct to you?
Max Semenchuk: Well, I think when I was speaking about the mechanism, so I think my key idea was, like, ideological game selection, you know? Like, what is the game name?
Max Semenchuk: And what would be exact? The rules? Like, I think buyback and burns is one way to do that. And the other way, potentially, again, just as a hypothesis, is, like, we stop minting.
Max Semenchuk: So there would be no new region tokens, you know, so…
Christian: If you.
Max Semenchuk: would need to buy region token, it would be buying from somebody who has it, you know? And that creates the scarcity, that creates the pressure, same as the buybacks.
Max Semenchuk: So… Hey, we can model that…
Christian: There's nothing in your model here that… that says that you need to buy regen for…
Christian: I mean, if you want to participate in governance, yeah, you need regen, but… but there's nothing in the actual purchase of eco-credits
Christian: Or anything that shows an organic need for region.
Christian: Right.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, because I probably put a region, like, not as the value as itself, but as the means of, like, realization of this echo credit sales, needs.
Christian: Yeah.
Brandon Kelly: Well,
Brandon Kelly: I actually wrote up an economic model as well, maybe it's useful. I wrote it under the Region Tokenomics forum post, so what Gregory and Christian are saying.
Brandon Kelly: And what I provided, which is…
Brandon Kelly: Just kind of outlining the required tests for…
Brandon Kelly: what exactly this model ends up forming into, but I… I really like the,
Brandon Kelly: what I'm hearing so far, and I like what Christian and Gregory have said so far, so…
Brandon Kelly: It feels like a nice… Evolution is… brewing here.
Brandon Kelly: I'll just mention the required tests, for my economic model. It's just…
Brandon Kelly: Validator sustainability under revenue variance, allocation sensitivity, emissions versus burn equilibrium.
Brandon Kelly: Fixed cap effects on liquidity and scarcity.
Brandon Kelly: Which, which Max just spoke of, and then the community executive behavior. Can you put a link.
Gregory Landua: Do you mind putting a link to the forum post?
Brandon Kelly: I have it in the tokenomic chat.
Gregory Landua: Okay, I can bring that up.
Brandon Kelly: Cool.
Brandon Kelly: It's really dense and short and sweet. I think anyone can take a quick look and get a really high-level grasp of it.
Brandon Kelly: And start… we can… we can either create a doc and start filling in these numbers, and then cross-check
Brandon Kelly: how we feel about those numbers. And of course, Max would… would,
Brandon Kelly: put out the most context, I think, on that.
Gregory Landua: Is this a distillation of Max's simulation equations?
Brandon Kelly: Actually.
Gregory Landua: An alternative set of equations that could be a different simulation.
Brandon Kelly: I think it's… I think it's alternative, because I asked… I've done my flow, and when you asked for another model, I was like, I'm gonna try and give him another model, but it's not gonna be what Max has provided here. And so, I try to… out of all my conversations with the GBT,
Brandon Kelly: this is what I can compose, that's my own, view.
Brandon Kelly: on… on it, so… Take it with a grain of salt.
Gregory Landua: Would you mind… would you mind taking this?
Gregory Landua: It should be pretty quick for you, and just replying with a, like, compare and contrast.
Gregory Landua: What's similar and what's different around the… like, the model, the variables, what they're tracking?
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, well, yeah, or probably what I'll do, I'll put them both in the cloud and ask to do that.
Gregory Landua: That's what I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm not suggesting that you go point by point, but you can…
Gregory Landua: Yeah, you can.
Max Semenchuk: I can, reply in the forum and share, like.
Gregory Landua: Keep going, Brandon, I just wanted to make sure that… because I think that'll be really helpful, illustrative of…
Gregory Landua: from your first principles, what you're developing, from Max's first principles, where there's similarities and differences, where there's complementarity, whether they should be synthesized, or whether it's actually really useful. I mean, I think it could be useful to have
Gregory Landua: one, two, like, two, or maybe even three different models coming from first principles that then we can build simulations around, and…
Gregory Landua: you know, that could be really powerful, and we can generate synthetic data about what's succeeding and what's not, and sort of, like, use that to anchor some things here over the next week or two, and then kind of, like, anchor a direction out of that. Use this as sort of an analysis period. So anyway, keep going.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, that was the whole thing. That was the whole thing. I, yeah, that's my…
Brandon Kelly: That's my economic model. I just… the required testing is what the synthesis of that is, and that's exactly what you suggested to Max, is what I was hoping for, is…
Brandon Kelly: this conversation, my reply, my economic model, how different it is, I think that'll be real fruitful, and…
Brandon Kelly: Happy to keep iterating on it.
Brandon Kelly: if…
Brandon Kelly: We want to move on to something real quick. I can talk about the agent structure that I spoke to Max about in DMs.
Max Semenchuk: Maybe… maybe just, I would like to hear, like, a quick comment from Mark, if possible, and then we can move on.
Mark DeRugeriis: Regarding the… The flywheel?
Max Semenchuk: the whole conversation, what's your perspective to what we discussed here?
Mark DeRugeriis: I think it…
Mark DeRugeriis: I mean, I'm still… sort of… Like, if… It makes sense, right? But…
Mark DeRugeriis: given the market… I'm looking at this from a coin perspective.
Mark DeRugeriis: And it just seems like…
Mark DeRugeriis: We need to… I'm struggling just to…
Mark DeRugeriis: communicate what I'm thinking is that We need to think about how…
Mark DeRugeriis: Other is sort of utility, or… whether it's…
Mark DeRugeriis: using the tokenized asset, you know, I just…
Mark DeRugeriis: I really don't have a meaningful, you know…
Max Semenchuk: Sorry, I didn't mean to put you in the, like, hard position. It just,
Max Semenchuk: I'm probably speaking to you in the context of R&D, eco-credit sales, and perspectives of this sales going up or down, or, you know, any interest in sales.
Mark DeRugeriis: Yeah, I mean… In theory, this all works, right? But it really depends on the volume and so forth.
Mark DeRugeriis: And… our ecosystem… Credits are… are sort of, like, siloed, on our marketplace,
Mark DeRugeriis: absent of some other, you know, OTC stuff, right? And it's not like we have this network
Mark DeRugeriis: on these API integrations with all these third-party marketplaces where we could really market equal credits and so forth. So it's kind of siloed there.
Mark DeRugeriis: You know, so…
Mark DeRugeriis: I don't think we're ever going to have the high enough volume to make this work.
Mark DeRugeriis: Unless there's a… A wider, sort of, sales network.
Mark DeRugeriis: more related to… These third-party marketplaces that
Mark DeRugeriis: We can integrate with, where we can, you know, it's kind of like,
Mark DeRugeriis: Selling sport, you know, tickets for sporting events.
Mark DeRugeriis: Like, you have these 2 or 3 main…
Mark DeRugeriis: Third-party sites, and then other folks are contributing there.
Mark DeRugeriis: And they might be selling on one, but there's these aggregator sites that can show you all the tickets that are being sold for all the events, regardless of where they originated from. StubHub.
Mark DeRugeriis: Fan, whatever, and last-minute deals, whatever those sites are.
Mark DeRugeriis: And so… Until we get to that point,
Mark DeRugeriis: I… we're not gonna have the volume of sales
Mark DeRugeriis: also knowing that we don't have a ton of resources at R&D, right? So…
Mark DeRugeriis: I don't know if that was helpful, but…
Mark DeRugeriis: That's how I'm thinking about that, and then… so then my mind also goes, well, what else can…
Mark DeRugeriis: Support this flywheel.
Mark DeRugeriis: Is it sort of,
Mark DeRugeriis: Using the credits and,
Mark DeRugeriis: To… to back the token, you know, like a real-world asset play,
Mark DeRugeriis: That they have some underlying value, and they can be exchanged.
Mark DeRugeriis: into a credit.
Mark DeRugeriis: That's something that… I've been thinking about, that's my comment on that.
Max Semenchuk: Thank you so much, and before we move to Brandon's and Ajin's question, there was also, like, a question from Christian regarding the specific upgrade plan, and I would just like to tell that probably before we make this strategic decision to the mode, which could be still a reward mode, could be
Max Semenchuk: Our choice of preference, or some other mode, but this mode
Max Semenchuk: would affect a lot of the policies we would try to then implement, that's, I guess.
Max Semenchuk: What is the main blocker now?
Max Semenchuk: What do you think, Christian? We should… would you like?
Christian: Say that again, Sam? I didn't… I didn't totally follow you. I want to make sure we're taking out any blockers to moving forward, because we want to…
Christian: We want to make some upgrades here in a… in a, you know, short to medium amount of time.
Max Semenchuk: Yeah, I imagine that to be, like, you know, we speak about, okay, which policies we need to implement, you know, what parameters we should change, what features we should add, so it's, like, a set of policies.
Max Semenchuk: But a set of policies would be good if we decide if we build, like, a democracy, authoritanship, you know, or, like, oligarchy, or something like that, so…
Max Semenchuk: just, like, as an example, but, you know, first is, like, the name of the game, and then the set of policies bringing us there. And here is, like, still… we're not aligned fully, I guess, before we go there.
Christian: Well, how do we get from… it feels to me like we are honing in on alignment with this model.
Christian: to me, it sounds like… We've got the cap idea, we've got this idea of
Christian: building the token around the model that you just did, where incentivizing people to contribute to the sales and production of eco-credits, and having governance be in charge of modulating the amount of
Christian: rewards that go to those folks. Sounds like we're fairly in consensus around that.
Christian: You know, there's exact numbers that need to be figured out.
Christian: I think, you know, I keep bringing up whether we build in the buyback and burn function
Christian: That still feels like it's a bit in the, in the… debate.
Christian: What else are you seeing, Max, that we need to really get really clear about so we can go ahead and start, building this?
Max Semenchuk: If we.
Christian: Or others on the call, Gregory or others.
Gregory Landua: I'll wait until Max answers.
Max Semenchuk: I'll try to do it quickly. So, if we are conceptually aligned, I heard, you know, Gregory half-aligned, I heard Brandon, you know, in support, I heard Mark being, like.
Max Semenchuk: just, you know, observing this for now without a strong position. So,
Max Semenchuk: I guess if we would feel that, okay, we have a preliminary support for that, then I have a number of, like, policies that we can try to adopt, so maybe that could be the next step, so we write all the things then that should be changed to realize this vision.
Christian: Okay.
Christian: I mean, yeah, go ahead, Gregory. See.
Gregory Landua: I was just gonna say, I think…
Gregory Landua: I think the proposal… I mean, I think we need to be very parsimonious in…
Gregory Landua: defining, as you just did off the cuff, Christian, what the key upgrades are that… I can't.
Christian: For some reason, you're… now we can, but when you started that, we couldn't hear you.
Gregory Landua: Okay. Well, I just think we need to be very parsimonious, as you were off the cuff, Christian, in defining the key
Gregory Landua: Upgrades where there's general consensus.
Gregory Landua: And creating, sort of, like.
Gregory Landua: differentiating that with a more experimental layer, where we do have ideas, and we want to have generative, interesting.
Gregory Landua: But we want to disambiguate that from A clear operational process.
Gregory Landua: That… that then can bring us to the point where we're answering
Gregory Landua: To the best of our ability, specific technical questions.
Gregory Landua: like… The implementation questions of how does…
Gregory Landua: How are we going to govern,
Gregory Landua: the parameters, specifically using Cosimoism or Go, how are we going to, you know, do we start with a… with a burn function out of the gate?
Gregory Landua: And how is it implemented? Are we going… what is going to be the supply cap? Is it the current cap, or are we going to make it bigger for some future thing, or… or dilute everybody?
Gregory Landua: And then cap it, and have a… and put that into the community treasury.
Gregory Landua: in order to, like, leverage that in the future. Those are specific technical implementation details.
Gregory Landua: While still referencing, you know, the general consensus, which is that we're instrumenting a transformation away from proof-of-stake-based reward
Gregory Landua: Tokenomics to a, fee-based…
Gregory Landua: Fee distribution and coordination of capital-based tokenomics.
Gregory Landua: Right? That's the key shift. We're… I think we have consensus we're doing that. Then there's, you know.
Gregory Landua: The details of how, and what, and specifically.
Gregory Landua: there, and so I think we should basically adopt that.
Gregory Landua: As our, like, yes, we're doing that, makes sense.
Gregory Landua: And get into the how.
Gregory Landua: get into how we're instrumenting it, because there could be different opinions. Like, maybe somebody's like, let's fix the supply right now, I've heard Brandon say this, we've got plenty of region, there's no need for more.
Gregory Landua: by pulling it off the market, we can still build a community treasury, whereas I kind of feel like, you know, why don't we just quadruple the supply and mint it all into a DAO?
Gregory Landua: And then cap it.
Gregory Landua: such that it dilutes, it's like… anyway, there's, like, a… there's… and there's pros and cons, and we could have, like, a whole cool little mini-debate, we could simulate it, and then we could be like, cool, check, we're moving on with Brandon's suggestion, on to the next thing. Are we implementing…
Gregory Landua: Mint burn, how much is it gonna cost? What are the specifics of it? What are the benefits of it? What are the downsides of implementing that at the protocol level?
Gregory Landua: Boom. And we can just, like, tackle each one, one by one, in the forum, probably. Makes sense to, like, bring it up, and then maybe have debates, answer all the key questions while we're generating, sort of, specifications and details out of that.
Gregory Landua: And then over the course of a couple weeks, we should have a very detailed, kind of, like, token economics upgrade plan that comes out of that, right? And then again, I do think we can… we can parse out the layer of this, which is…
Gregory Landua: you know, like.
Gregory Landua: I think part of the thesis here is region can continue to be multivalent, people could start to build out utility around using it as collateral for claims or data or credits.
Gregory Landua: People could use it for liquidity processes, people could be using it for all these different things. It has that attribute as a digitally native asset with a, you know.
Gregory Landua: concrete supply dynamics. So, we can layer on the other forms of utility that might veer it towards a store of value, or might veer it towards a currency, or whatever.
Gregory Landua: And we can be more emergent and evolutionary about that, and a little bit less, like, spending our time in this…
Gregory Landua: in this forum, sort of circling back and having those conversations, essentially. We can, like, test it in the real world, and we can build on it. So that's my synthesis, and kind of, like, my thumbs up for what I think is…
Gregory Landua: Emerging as the consensus.
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, I think we can't believe.
Max Semenchuk: So, like, few… just a few minutes for Brandon, for the agents. I'm okay staying a bit later if you need me, but, maybe we could also,
Max Semenchuk: Give you some space.
Brandon Kelly: Oh, thanks,
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, I thought that what Gregory said was awesome. I actually like that idea of minting more supply and putting it in a controlled wallet to kind of…
Brandon Kelly: execute on your model to a fair degree, Max.
Brandon Kelly: We need, like, a centralizing, like… Doc that we all can…
Brandon Kelly: Interact with, and then feed it into one place.
Brandon Kelly: To get the consensus, so we can form a consensus.
Gregory Landua: Yeah, I think we need to start using probably the region network GitHub.
Gregory Landua: And… start to…
Gregory Landua: like, manage via pull request, and have kind of, like, a nice nested architecture for what our knowledge management looks like, and what our forward progress looks like. I've been… I had been aiming to have a proposal and a repo structure, and, like, permissions and a team.
Gregory Landua: put together so that people could join it, and I haven't had… I've been, you know, juggling different things, so I haven't… I haven't gotten there yet, but I agree that that… that should happen. It could also, you know, alternatively, it could happen in a different repo. I just think it'll be easier to just kind of, like, centralize it there in the region network.
Gregory Landua: Oh, like, repo, where the ledger… because, you know, it's just, like, it's where all the things are. The ledger codebase, and the COI code base, and all of the different things live there already.
Brandon Kelly: Amazing,
Brandon Kelly: I think… I think it's pretty important that… because we just… if we're not forming consensus, it's because we have no…
Brandon Kelly: We don't have the same document to fill out, and the same place to submit it for it to be reviewed by
Brandon Kelly: something that can review all of it in a short period of time, which is typically AI.
Brandon Kelly: I didn't get to read what Sean said, but
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, that's what I think would be useful, and that's where the agent comes into play. I was telling Max, if we…
Brandon Kelly: put together an agent that typically would cost, like, $40 a month up front. You need the VPS, you need,
Brandon Kelly: you need the API, but this thing would essentially just… Have a heartbeat to…
Brandon Kelly: everything that's in COI to constantly… form synthesis, And… Essentially, a high-level memo of
Brandon Kelly: To get everyone to agree on something.
Brandon Kelly: And we can create a token for it to be self-sustaining, and it can be the working group token.
Brandon Kelly: And it can be on base… this is the things I was talking to him about, but…
Brandon Kelly: It's towards the end of the call, and I don't think that will most likely happen, so if that GitHub happens, I'm game.
Gregory Landua: Yeah, let's get the GitHub going. Sean said I think he would help.
Gregory Landua: And…
Gregory Landua: I have some, like, experimental governance ideas and other things that we could be playing with. I think we can… again, I think there's sort of, like, let's…
Gregory Landua: let's separate…
Gregory Landua: what do we have consensus about, and we can operationalize. We know we need to do it, let's just get it done.
Gregory Landua: versus sort of, like, branches and forks and things that are, like, exciting, that all reference back to that. So they understand that to be what's true and what's coming, or what we're getting done, and the other things are meant to complement it or move it in different kind of fun
Gregory Landua: exciting directions. So, you know, I think we can… we can do that. Sounds like Sean is willing to take a crack at some of the repo stuff. Sean, I'm happy to jam with you as an admin, and like, we can make the right teams and access and different things, and make the right invites, and then we can just start pushing and synthesizing and anchoring things.
Gregory Landua: And go from there.
Brandon Kelly: Yo, so hyped for that.
Gregory Landua: Awesome. Very exciting, everybody. Thank you.
Max Semenchuk: Okay, thanks, cheers.
Christian: Brandon, I want to hear more about what you've been working on with the, stuff. Maybe just in the Tokenomics channel, we can just chat back and forth about what you're seeing with,
Christian: With these new agents and stuff.
Christian: Sure. I've yet to fully comprehend what you're… what you're going on about there.
Brandon Kelly: Cool. I'll hop… I'll probably just call you, so…
Christian: Okay, let's do that.
Brandon Kelly: Does anyone else want to hop on and hear a little bit about that?
Shawn: Are you guys doing that right now?
Brandon Kelly: I think Max is trying to dip out, so yeah, I would do it right now, and we can create a new call.
Shawn: Yeah, sure, I'll probably talk.
Max Semenchuk: First of all, I can transition the call to Brandon to be the co-owner, and I can stand for some time. It's, like, a bit late here, but I would also like to listen to that. If you like, I'll just move it to Brandon.
Max Semenchuk: Would it be fine?
Brandon Kelly: Yeah, that's fine with me.
Shawn: Awesome.
Max Semenchuk: A.
Christian: Great.